Submission details
Permissions editor is way too complicated and outdated
User has to make millions of clicks to edit permissions for the file. All dialogs which pop up in the process don't make the process any clearer.
Keep it simple, reduce number of intermediate dialogs and clicks.
High
High
Not fixed
Discussion (36 comments)
All I ever remember after dealing with permissions is that I clicked Okay a million times.
I'd also add this:
When adding Users or groups to the list of permissions, scan for local users/groups first and domain users/groups second.
When opening permissions, we should see a nice grid that lists users on the y axis, and what the permissions are on the x axis.
Some sort of designation if they are inheritied or not, and maybe a nice visual highlight if there is a deny checked.
Simple simple simple.
I would recommend changing Severity and Impact to High...
This is an absolute hell right now, and it effectively makes it impossible for even advanced users to set the desired permissions.
Also, I would consider this a security issue, since most people simply give up when confronted with this mess, resulting in private files being exposed.
Oh, and it would be really nice, if there was a confirm dialog when the permissions you set, effectively remove your own right to change the permissions.....
It's beyond complicated, it's unforgiveable. The first time I tried to change permissions I was led astray by the incomprehensibly geekified dialogs, and I just assumed it was Microsoft's way of discouraging people from even trying to change permissions.
Can't delete that stinking file?
How dare you attempt such a thing!
What do mean it's your own computer and your own data??
No, no, WE tell you what you can and cannot do, we are Microsoft!
Windows Permissions dialogs....ahh, always conjures up a 'what the $%^# were they thinking?' response :)
I don't mind the dialogs so much, after so many years working with windows they're kind of second nature (since they haven't changed in 8 years). What I hate is maintaining the parity between "Share" permissions and "File system" permissions.
click click click. its pretty archaic to keep this from the winnt days.
This old security interface must be changed! the first time I use this was very confusing
It's impossible semplify it, because this is NTFS and Windows permissions
NTFS permissions are complex. However that doesn't mean the dialog boxes need to be unfriendly. Now Vista is even worse than XP thanks to changes made to accomodate UAC. Trying to figure out how give XP access via LAN to a Vista machine's folder was a nightmare, even windows help was useless.
IMO all sharing and permissions dialogs need to be thrown out and redone from scratch. Get the Office 2007 team to work on it :P
I agree with what thda wrote completely. The severity and impact of this problem should be changed to high. Talk about a situation of poor design and high complexity.
Changed severity from [Medium] to [High].
Changed impact from [Medium] to [High].
I agree with all of the above but this:
"User has to make millions of clicks to edit permissions for the file"
and this:
"reduce number of intermediate dialogs"
is not useful feedback. If I were MSFT (and I'm not) I would completely ignore this.
If you're going to provide feedback be SPECIFIC. Say exactly what you're trying to do and say exactly how many clicks it took (everyone here knows it doesn't take millions). Say which dialogs are superfluous. Perhaps even suggest HOW it could be better.
Don't flame me for saying this. Years of experience of submitting feedback to Microsoft have taught me that if you don't provide accurate feedback then the chances of that feedback being actioned will greatly diminish.
-JT
@jamiet: I'm enthusiast, not a UX expert on salary from Microsoft. All I can do is just POINT out the problem for Microsoft. They have top notch experts to think it through.
Besides, permissions editor in its current state is being used for configuring permissions for all possible objects on Windows NT platform, so overhaul process must be done very carefully and needs to account lots of things which I could be just not aware of.
From the end-user perspective the result must reduce number of mouse clicks and lessen the confusion from all those pop ups.
I agree - This has gotten progressively worse with each release of Windows, and is now almost unusable.
Relates issue:
"'Security' tab is visible for one folder but not multiple"
http://www.aerotaskforce.com/view/364
I've never had to mess with permissions. Hmmm.
I guess I'm the lucky one? :D
I deal with permissions a lot and I find myself going through clicking hell inside the permissions dialogs. I don't pretend to have all the answers, Advanced NTFS permissions are pretty hard core and not for the faint-hearted. They allow for very granular configurations and it’s what makes NTFS rock solid in terms of a security platform.
In fairness, the UI does attempt to display a basic set of permissions that are easy to change in one place. It's all the Advanced button stuff that adds multiple windows.
The problem trying to evolve this is that same interface is used throughout the entire Windows and Microsoft estate wherever permissions are edited or applied. It has to work for everything.
But it does need to change and I just hope they DO NOT opt for a wizard driven menu or an HTML based page.
There does need to be a simplified version of the permissions dialog for home users (Vista Home Basic and Home Premium, just like there is a simple version of the Windows Sharing dialog (Windows Simple File Sharing).
However, there should be an option to turn this off, just like Simple File Sharing. I get through the existing Windows Permissions system with ease, I've used and understood it since Windows NT and while it is a rather complex way of doing it and therefore not perfect for home users, it's an excellent system that as far as I'm concerned is perfect.
Turn the "Simple Windows Permissions" system on by default (as in, if the user chooses, allow it to be turned off, don't force it on the user if he/she decides the simple way does not offer the granular controls that advanced does) on the Home Basic and Home Premium versions of Windows 7, but leave it OFF by default in the Business and Ultimate versions of Windows 7, if they're keeping the same editions model for "7" too, that is.
Windows permissions are not that complicated, but they are not explained very well in the documentation.
This dialog doesn't help the situation. Not only is it confusing, but it is tedious to work with.
I find using command line tools like cacls (and xcacls) to almost be easier.
As long as the *ALL* the functionality is retained, I'm all for a total revamp/
Something that reduces clicks, not increases.
Simple files sharing shouldn't be mutuality exclusive.
Also, once I accept a UAC prompt, elevate the whole property window, don't create a new one with less options... example. click edit.., find that there is nothing there, ok, then I have to eleveate again to get to advanced! GRR.
This is terribly annoying. UAC prompts, multiple windows with the same information and options... why do I need to have five or more windows open and go through UAC prompts just to edit permissions? Way too much clicking, and the prompts go way to deep.
This is all well and good to adjust this, but there needs to be a way to still manage the smaller settings and be able to get as granular as you can now. Maybe a better version of "simple file sharing" could be "simple file sharing and permissions"
This is probable the worst designed bit of Windows UI. I understand permissions, and I absolutely hate this UI.
I couldn't agree more, this dialog is basically untouched since NT 3.1 and it was lousy then. The process of setting permissions is an absolute nightmare, even for those few of us that actually understand NTFS permissions. Throw in UAC and managing permissions on Vista is a nightmare. The number of times I've had to guide friends through the process of taking ownership of files is alarming.
also, figuring out each user's implicit permissions should not take you to a further window. this has been a total mess for a while now
This is a case of GUI being _far_ more complicated to use than the command-line tool icacls which functionality it replicates. There is no reason NTFS permissions cannot be intuitive to use.
This one has prevented me from fully working with permissions, something that Microsoft should not want its users to be dealing with.
The behaviour should be changed back to XP/2003 mode. This means cutting out a layer on clicking "Edit" that is totally unnecessary. Otherwise the Security dialog is very good. It is meant for system administrators, NOT regular users, who usually don't care about Access Control Lists.
This is a rather difficult subject... I don't really think that these dialogs should be simplified, as complexity has its merits : I really don't want anyone to call me at 10 PM to try and rescue his/hers document which he/she had just blocked while playing with ACLs...
Vista (and even XP, to a lesser extent) provides rather good default security permissions on the most common folders, changing them should not be an easy tasks, and frankly, the dialog is not over complicated for people who know what they are doing.
I think the example screenshot you used to illustrate the problem is misleading because you are showing advanced permission configuration, and are then searching for a user.
I admit that I am pretty familiar with this method of editing permissions so it makes sense to me. However, I don't think there is an easier way to simply the process and retain functionality. As a system admin I would rather see this stay the way it is.
Where's BrandonLive? I'm sure they can keep the functionality and improve the accessibility with less window popups and mouse clicks.
If I had it my way I would ask the scenic-ribbon team to create a nice looking window for this mess *ducks for cover from stubborn system administrators*
This has been fixed.
xiphi wrote on June 3, 2008, 10:49am
I really hope they address this in Windows 7. I sometimes don't even know what I'm doing because I get lost after going through so many dialogs. :(